g60 vs vr6





26/July/2017
 That's it!

 The g60

But...

 That's all?

"The inners of the g60 are heavy! It is built like a tank!"






The vr6


A lot of metal!




The downsizing effect!

Promoting the 57%-43%, (Passat Syncro g60), ratio against the, common, 60%-40% ratio.
(Or the 64%-36% of the, nose heavy, Audis).


The Polar Moment of Inertia effect! 
(The auto makers are not willing to talk much  about it. Are they?) 



Factoid #1: the vr6 is, (about),  50 kgr. heavier than the g60.

Factoid #2:  it's center of gravity is overhanging from the front axle.


FAQ

Q#1:

 Is this difference present on the road? 

A:

Yes, very much. Especially a comparison, with the same tires, between a Corrado g60 vs a Corrado vr6, (although the later has the + front suspension), on the curves, is legendary for the superiority of the nose lighter and more polar concentrated g60.

And not to forget to mention, a g60 Corrado, (exactly the same car to the Passat b3 g60  in terms of front
suspension  and worst from the Passat in terms of front-rear weight distribution), is characterized, from the "Car" magazine, this way: "  The Corrado has more grip than the 944, (Porsche),  and more traction, it has more responsive steering, and has impeccable directional stability." (January 1989).


(to be continued)



28/07/17

 Q#2

But, then, why VW introduced this engine as an evolution against the g60?

A:

Well, the social reality, (including everything, marketing, trends, antagonism, e.t.c., e.t.c.), imposes strong stress upon any car manufacturer, who is not simply an auto maker but a seller too.

There are numerous cases where the manufacturers went the wrong way, because of these stresses. In a lot of these examples it was unavoidable for them, even if they knew that they were wrong! (For e.x. the diesel gate).

Please consider and the next article excerpt from the "drive.com":


"The Volkswagen VR6 Is On Its Way Out"


"Volkswagen has been making the VR6 engine since the early 1990s. Its narrow-angle V configuration is a unique way to cram six cylinders into a space where four would normally go, using only one head instead of two like a true V-6. This enabled models from the top-end Passat all the way down to the Golf and Jetta to keep up with the straight-six engines from BMW and Mercedes. Plus their unique sound, especially with an intake, is pleasing to the ears. But time seems to be running out for the VR6, as turbocharged 4-cylinders can now do everything the VR6 can and more.
Engineering Explained teamed up with VW aficionado the Humble Mechanic to examine why VW is offering the VR6 in less and less of its models. The main reason is that the 2.0 turbo generates similar horsepower, more torque, and best of all has a flat torque curve through much of its rev range. This is nothing new.

 The 1.8T in my 2003 Jetta offers the same benefits as its VR6 contemporary—plus it weighs less, which improves the car's handling and braking. 

Not only is the turbo four-cylinder just as powerful as the VR6, it's also more fuel efficient. Eliminating two cylinders reduces rotating mass and the power it takes to move it, improving overall fuel economy.
(Blog's underlying).

Finally, VW is working on consolidating its platforms and drivetrains. The new Atlas is a seven-passenger SUV, yet its platform is fundamentally the same as the much smaller Golf. Its base 2.0-liter 4-cylinder engine is also shared with the Golf. The V-6 option is really a 3.6-liter VR6, only available in the Atlas and the Touareg. The VR6 has disappeared from all of Volkswagen's other models.

Guess there is a replacement for displacement after all".

(to be continued)



30/July/2017

Q#3:

How much reliable is the combination, supercharger g60 plus the PG motor?  


A:

JBETZ, superchargers engineer specialist, (BBM), who produces bbm superchargers and offers repair service for the g60 gladers, says:


gladers reliability

 "Reliability, absolutely....we get good g-laders in the shop every single week. Unfortunately we also get some bad ones. These are now over 20 yrs old! 

I'd call that pretty darn reliable for any forced induction unit to run that long, pretty amazing.

Just like any form of forced induction, the condition and reliability is greatly affected by the user and maintenance.

If you run a good air filter that is not rubbing and damaged, the charger will not suck up dirt and wear out prematurely.

If you change the oil and keep your boost return misting back into the charger as intended....it will lubricate the apex strips and run strong for a very very long time. 

The ones the we see broken, worn excessively or damaged are from poor maintenance. Start with a good one, take care of it and get another 20+yrs of reliable run time". 


PG motor reliability 

A PG user says, (similar what I have heard  from other sources):

"I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it." 
(Later on explains that he means km).


Now it has 290.000 km., no repairs.

Strangely enough, the sound is almost equal to the next, just refurbished, one:



Is there any other vw engine, of any era, capable to achieve that?



Q#4:


What about VR6's reliability?

VR6's, (of the g60's era), reliability elements.

A user, (car mechanic), says:

"I Notice everyone talking about a ticking noise on thier VR's Coming From the lifters Ive Owned My 93 Passat VR for about 5 yrs now and when I got it it had 89k on it now I have 122k I just Replaced the Chains due to Guide Failure and Bending all Back 3 cyls Valves"

The chain syndrome. (Before and after).



It is mentioned that the total system, (chains, guides, e.t.c.), has to be changed every 150.000-200.000 km.,
with a cost of 1500 - 2000 €. This is much more difficult than the regular service of a glader, (100.000 km), and more costly, (for the glader is, about 500 €).

And looks as a resistive problem even for the 3.6 l, nowadays VR6:
VR6 chain problems.

Mr. Lawrence, (a user),  says:

"I was under the impression that timing chains aren't really supposed to break. In my case I have a vw jetta vr6, and my first motor threw a rod and broke the oil pan. The second motor's timing chain broke and bent all the valves and usually this is fatal to the entire block and head of the engine".
 link
 
(Does all these remind you the, much newer, TSI engines)?

At only 52.000 miles, (83.000 km)?
link
Nowdays VAG VR6, 3.2 l, (the one for the TOUAREG!).
After a major broken timing chain event, the valves look like this.

The damaged chain gears.

Debris.
What had suffered these pistons...


Τhe service life of the VR6 looks to be, about, 500.000 km.. (Very dependable on the use terms as it is for all the motors).

(to be continued)



31/July/2107

Trying to found one sounding better...




"When I grow up I wanna be a diesel"



But just found something better...
It is not cold though, it is at 82° C ...


(After all these, (between  others), I recognize now, that it's cousin V6 AUDI AAH 2.8 l engine, (which I know very well), is a much better design). 



 But there are many more...



(to be continued) 



01/August/2017



           An owner of both, new, stock, g60 and vr6  says:

 "Just sold my '92 G60. I had a 92 SLC (VR6) as well as the G60, bought both new, and quite frankly the VR6 was a freakin reliablility nightmare.

I sold that after just two and a half years because of all the problems. The G60 I just sold with 90K miles on it and happened to be the most reliable car I've ever owned. (Blogs underlying).

 I guess the teething problems had been worked out on my G60 as it was the last year of it compared to the first year of the VR6. I think my G60 felt more nimble than the VR6 though the VR6 could beat it in just about any kind of race.

 I kept both stock so I don't know how reliable any of the performance goodies are for it".
link


Can be an explanation, for the above report, that, between others,  he had a third generation g-lader?



The three g-lader generations.

(photo to "Theibach performance")

Now let's summing up.

The g60 has a belt to drive the camshaft. The vr6 has a chain supposed to be stronger, (and much noisier, coming from the 70's).

The g60 never brakes it's  belt, changing it at the normal intervals, (90.000-100.000 km), and there is a reason for that: the belt has a minimum load since has to revolve just 8 valves driven by one camshaft.

The vr6 brakes the valve's chain driving system, unexpectedly.

Now, as we have see, the vr6 destroys a lot of it's internals when the valves driving system brakes.


Factoid #3: VR6 is an interference engine.


As for the g60, let's make an hypothesis: the  g60 snaps it's belt. What will happen to it?

The answer is: nothing! (Talking about a stock engine, always).




Factoid #4: The g60 is a freewheeling engine.
(Non interference).

 

(to be continued) 

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

01/August/2017  16:10 Athens GMT (+02:00)
 
A parenthesis opens here.

A Syncro g60 car, (Golf, Passat), freewheels by two different ways:

#1  By it's belt/valves/camshaft system, as it is described previously.  

#2  By it's transmission rear differential, (more at the oncoming transmission page), being capable to give a warning like this:

The free wheel indicator

Although I know that to confuse those two is highly unlikely, let me to stress it here, please.  

Parenthesis closes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------  


02/August/2017


"o.k o.k o.k o.k o.k

 then make a comparison to the 1.8t, which is the best"

Be patient please...

It is a very complicated subject with chains, belts, chains and belts, of many different generations, applications and eras.

Just to give you an example, a g60 engine does not have  any of the following 1.8t engine problems:


"

Some views from a guy who services them regularly:

1: there are several "1.8t" engines, and they cover two VERY different engine families, EA827 (early) and EA113 (late). Like the difference between an AHU and an ALH, respectively. Passats from 1998 through early 2001 will have the early type, 2001.5 to 2005 wil have the later type. Audi A4s got the newer type a year or so before the Passat. All Golf, Jetta, NB, TT use the later type. There are about 7 different 1.8t engine codes, too. They cover 150, 170, 180, and even 225hp versions.

2: the versions found in Passats (and their stablemate, the Audi A4) are NOTORIOUS for sludging problems, primarily due to their smaller oil capacity because of the shape of the oil pan that must hump over the subframe. The TSB that stated to use the larger spin-on filter, like the older diesels use, helped that somewhat.... but they still do not hold as much oil as the G/J/NB/TT.

3: they use some oil, and this, if not kept in check, also makes for sludging issues if people do not keep the oil topped up.

4: they need 505.02 spec 5w40 oil. This requirement was also listed in the TSB, since lots of places were just putting any old synthetic (usually 5w30) or worse, just bulk 5w30 rando-lube oil, and possibly a crappy filter.

5: they have a timing chain. Volkswagen CANNOT make chains that last, period. If the chain itself does not stretch out and start flapping about because the tensioner show wore out, its the electrical part of the cam phaser (all later 1.8t engines have variable intake cams) that fails. These are expensive parts, and a pretty big job to replace.

6: early ones had timing belt issues, that were remedied with a new style belt and tensioner, and they are NOT compatible with the old stuff. Lots of people would put a new style belt on an older engine with an older tensioner, and they would not run right. Gotta replace it all together.

7: plastic water pump impellers are about thrice as likely to break on these than on TDIs, presumably because the engines spin faster.

8: the breather system, the vacuum system, and the turbo control system are probably one of the most complex, over engineered messes of molded rubber hoses, check valves, and plastic bits you will ever see in your life. I've spent MANY hours chasing down intake/charge air leaks. The AWM engine in the 2001.5+ Passat has no less than FOURTEEN one-way check valves, and they are so common to rot away and cause all sorts of problems I keep about 10 of them on the shelf here.

9: most 1.8t applications have secondary air injection, which is an emission control system specifically designed to get the catalyst up to temp and provide endless income for automotive technicians. How a system that only need work for about 30 seconds after a cold start can cause so much trouble is beyond me, but whatever, I did not design it. Simple enough system, but they ALWAYS are breaking, and parts are expensive.

10: manual transmission 1.8t cars use DMFs, and they fail even more than they do on TDIs. Through 2000 Passats' ZF autobox has a design flaw in the valve body that causes some trans problems. Other 1.8t engines got bolted to 01Ms (yes, you can laugh, I did).

11: most 1.8t engines have an electric vacuum pump, to assist the brakes. These are located in a lame spot down low on the G/J/NB/TT, exposed to the weather, and can fail, and are very expensive. Passats and A4s not so bad, as the pump is located up in the engine compartment next to the PS reservoir.

12: all the later 1.8t engines eat coil packs. They eat them like a fat guy eats candy. VW keeps recalling them, they keep redesigning them, they keep eating them. I *think* the latest versions, which have only been around for a few months now, may be better.

13: the 1.8t engines, like all modern VAG gas engines, often have catalyst failures, as well as lambda sensors and MAF sensors. They are VERY finicky about fuel control, and do not tolerate much of anything out of whack.

14: they require premium fuel. If you use regular, not only will you have slightly reduced power and poorer fuel economy (because they ECU will pull timing from the knock sensor input), but you will also run the risk of cooking the turbocharger, as EGTs go up when timing is retarded. So you may save a whole 75 cents when you fill up, but you will spend $1200 every 50k miles replacing the turbocharger."

 link

So this is a subject which will be presented on it's time and on it's dedicated page. 

(to be continued) 



04/August/2017


  Performance

 This is an interesting question, since the vr6 replaced the g60 in order, between the others, to achieve a better performance.

So let's have a look to the manufacturer's data:


g60


vr6



And with the change just  of the eprom chip:

 
ABT, (~500 €), g60, (the one which is used for twenty years or 250.000 km in my Passatitsa without a cough).

Of course there is something similar for the vr6, which gives the  similar performance of 192 hp, (at 6200 rpm),  and  26 NM torque, (at 4250 rpm), (golden, by Powerchip Singapore, 1290 $).







But...

 The consumption factor.

"(If) G60 is properly tuned, perhaps massaged a bit, well, even the VR6 owners will have to think twice before taking you on. Of course they'll be at the filling station while you're still out on the highway. We all know that positive manifold pressure is the way to nirvana"


And as we can see here:




 The consumption, with the ABT chip, drops a little bit...


...making the ~10% difference in consumption, between the two, (g60, vr6), even bigger.
(By clicking on the image, a new big window opens, where you can see the date: 09/92)

You don't believe that a chipped vr6 will reduce it's consumption, I suppose...
(Anyway, the "Singapore Powerchips", does not declare any data to give you).

(to be continued) 


22/January/2017

VWCorrado.de 

... the Corrado's best friend ;-):

"According to VW internal reports, the production of the g60 engine was more expensive than the six-cylinder  VR6 engine".
(Translated from the German).

link (The last sentence of the linked page).


13/December/2018

AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT,  Passat b3 review, 22/November/2017, Patrick Broich:


(Google's translation).

link